Senator JOYCE—Looking through your submission, you also obviously have problems with the Office of Fair Trading and its issuing of licences; that was also one of your concerns. You believe that, of the builders who have been issued licences, you will always have ratbags—

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Mrs Onorati—There will never be a completely foolproof system. Some of the builders can slip out. We addressed the General Purpose Standing Committee No. 4 on the budget estimates and lodged a submission; that is how this inquiry came about, because we proved—and there is evidence in the transcript; David Oldfield said it—they only check 10 per cent. I do not know if you followed that.

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Senator JOYCE—Yes, I saw your questions. Mr Oldfield asked questions on your behalf with regard to the examination of how many people had been checked for bankruptcy, criminal records et cetera.

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Mrs Onorati—Exactly.

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Senator JOYCE—And they said, ‘Yes,’ or ‘But then we found out it is only about 10 per cent,’ or something like that.

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Mrs Onorati—We have experience, as we provided original documents. I do not ask you to believe me, okay? Please look at the documents.

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Senator JOYCE—I believe you, because you are under oath.

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Mrs Onorati—Yes, and I am very strict.

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Senator JOYCE—Do you feel that the Queensland scheme is a better form of scheme?

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Mrs Onorati—There is a consensus, isn’t there?

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Senator JOYCE—Yes. So your specific issue is with regard to the New South Wales scheme. You find the New South Wales scheme particularly abhorrent. We are having the hearing here in Sydney and it is filling up the room, so obviously the major concern is in the structure of the New South Wales scheme. The question I am getting to is: if I waved a magic wand and said, ‘You are now the boss; you now run the show. But you have to make changes,’ what changes would you want? You will want transparency, I can see that. You will want a scheme that is more diligent in how it enforces what builders get licences and also how the claims are brought about. If we just overlaid the Queensland scheme into New South Wales, would that be sufficient or is there more you need to do on top of that?

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Mrs Onorati—I read the evidence of Mr Jennings, I think it was, and it sounds excellent. What I want to bring to your attention also is the recommendation—and I think it is in my written submission—that the Campbell inquiry made that they wanted an independent commission completely detached, separate, from the Office of Fair Trading.

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Senator JOYCE—I read in your submission that you believe that the Office—

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Mrs Onorati—But what happens? The recommendation has not been implemented appropriately. It is like putting Dracula to look after the Blood Bank. We have the same problems, because we have the old people who are so used to it. I do not know why. Are they too busy; are there not enough people? It is a systemic fashion; I do not know what to call it. There should be an independent body.

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Senator JOYCE—I saw that in your submission where you talked about the Office of Fair Trading was the problem, and then the solution became part of the problem, and just infected the solution, so you want the Office of Fair Trading out of the scene. You want an independent stand-alone, completely apart from the Office of Fair Trading.

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Mrs Onorati—I am sorry for that, because I have a lot of good friends there, but unfortunately I cannot see it working. When something does not work it has to be replaced.

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Senator JOYCE—I also noted in your submission, and I was very interested in this, the amount that you guys are paying in legal fees. It is absolutely astronomical.

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Mrs Onorati—Yes, this table proves it. Did you see the table?

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Senator JOYCE—Yes, I can see that. It looks like the legal fees are about one-third to one-quarter of the costs.

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Mrs Onorati—A quarter! It is double and sometimes triple.

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Senator JOYCE—The cost?

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Mrs Onorati—Yes. For one driveway, a three-day job for a concreter, the homeowner went three years to the CTTT. The system is that they engage senior counsel and solicitors when it is supposed to be a system for consumers, inexpensive, informal et cetera, like the legislation. Legislations are not complying in any form or shape. So the consumer has to match; otherwise, what happens? Then they have strategies, the licence people, and the strategy is to delay. This is why the cost goes up, and that is why we have from three years to seven or eight years in the tribunal. They adjourn; he goes overseas. And the costs for that driveway? Now they are waiting for the award of the costs. The decision has come out; the case of the cross-claim was dismissed. This is a small example. This is why the smallest building repair job is the biggest nightmare of your life and destroys people completely—not only financially. People are destroyed mentally. A lot of people—

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Senator JOYCE—Yes, I can understand that.

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Mrs Onorati—I am sorry I use the word ‘mental’. They go and see a psychologist. Intelligent people with tertiary education; a former solicitor, member of the CTTT, a dear friend of mine since I was a teenager—I can see how the personality changes. Not only the pocket is emptied; this is emptied.

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Senator JOYCE—The question I am getting to is this: do you believe it becomes a tactic of the people in avoiding you to say, ‘We will just drag you through the courts, backwards and forth, backwards and forth, backwards and forth, because we know that you are going to run out of money before I do.’

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Mrs Onorati—That is right. It is a paper war and money war, David and Goliath—call it what you want. Look at the last case in this. This is an example. It is the last resort, but he is still fighting. He refused to settle in mediation. There was no written agreement signed.

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Senator JOYCE—On top of that, there would be a lot of people out there who would have a grievance but they will never pursue it because they say, ‘If I go to pursue this, I will just go broke.’

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Mrs Onorati—Exactly, they are scared. This is what I am saying. People are saying that.

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Senator JOYCE—‘For the sake of my driveway, I will be bankrupt.’

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Mrs Onorati—That is what she said: ‘I would have been better off to give him whatever he wanted.’ This person is terminally ill. Each person has a problem here.

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Senator JOYCE—Obviously you are passionate about it, and the people involved with it are passionate about it. Your political involvement in trying to get this issue pursued is obviously intense and has gone over a number of years. Why do you believe it is now before a federal Senate inquiry? Why has this thing not been resolved at a political level before the state? Why hasn’t someone at the state parliamentary level just said: ‘Let’s rule a line under this and fix it up, finish it off, whatever we have to do. If they want an independent tribunal, give then an ind