Senator JOYCE—You have obviously heard of Senator Norm Coleman, a Republican senator from Minnesota in the United States; Senator Tom Harkin, who is a Democrat on the agriculture committee; and Alan Tracy, who is President of the US Wheat Associates. All these bodies, from both sides of the political fence, and the growers group have emphatically said that they believe Australia should get rid of their single desk because it is unfair to the United States. Do you think they are mad and have got it completely wrong?

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Mr A Drum—I was over there a few years ago. I travelled through a lot of wheat areas in Canada and in the United States, and the farmers I talked to there said, ‘You don’t know how lucky you are with the set-up you have got in Australia.’ That is what I was told. I notice that Senator Harkin and a few others have gone very quiet in recent times, because I think they have got their own way.

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Senator JOYCE—Alan Tracy actually congratulated our agriculture minister for getting rid of the single desk.

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Mr A Drum—I wouldn’t doubt it.

Senator JOYCE—I am just trying to follow Senator Adams. Where in the exposure draft of this legislation is the assertion that we will have one player and one market? Where did she get that from?

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Senator ADAMS—It is not in there. What I am saying is that that is how it is being done at the moment. The minister is looking at which market it is going to and that company—

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Senator JOYCE—That is not in the legislation.

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Senator ADAMS—No, it is not in the legislation. The legislation is an exposure draft. I have already raised with the department how that works. Tomorrow they will be explaining a lot more fully about the flexibility of that draft.

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Senator JOYCE—Are you saying that you have something that succeeds what we are looking at now and having an inquiry into?

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Senator ADAMS—I have it in my head because I went to the department and asked for a briefing. I have nothing else. I am just saying that the department will explain tomorrow.

Senator JOYCE—I will go back to an issue that was greeted with some mirth. You are aware of the positions of American Senators Coleman and Harkin and of Alan Tracy of US Wheat Associates. Do you think that their position is justified—wanting to get rid of the single desk because it would be an assistance to American wheat exporters?

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Mr Hart—Yes.

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Mr O’Hare—Yes.

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Mrs O’Hare—Yes.

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Senator JOYCE—We have also heard the basis of the argument that what we will have is a disparity between very large wheat growers, who will have the capacity to be favoured clients of major regional depots, and other people who will make up the margins—similar, I imagine, to the way shopping malls have favoured anchored tenants, who get an extremely good deal, and everybody else makes it up. But why should Australia not just be owned by corporate agriculture?

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Mr O’Hare—We are not disagreeing with you.

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Senator JOYCE—It is a clear issue. People watching would say, ‘Well, why should Australia have family farms?’

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Mr Hart—It is a very good question. Why should Australia have small businesses? Why should Australians, indeed, own any business? Surely we can get Wal-Mart in here and just turn over retailing to them. It sounds good to me; they have a track record as the best and cheapest retailers on the planet, so let us close everybody down.

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Senator JOYCE—You know I do not believe this.

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Mr O’Hare—One of the major benefits I see in family farming is that you have people in families living on the land and looking after it. We have seen in our own area that superannuation companies have come in and bought big stretches of land that are then run by outside contractors. We are living on our farm, we are looking after it, we are planting the trees, we are making sure that it looks okay and we are looking after it for the future. We are not a corporation looking to make a quick dollar that, if it all fails, will say, ‘Bugger it; we’ll get out of here.’ We are looking at the long term.

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Mr Hart—I think there is more to any argument than just pure utility, and that is the argument that you are putting.

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Senator JOYCE—Do you believe the peak industry groups that went and had a chat to the Export Wheat Commission represented you or the majority of growers in your area?

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Mr Hart—The Grains Council of Australia imploded months ago. The Grains Council of Australia is a very interesting thing because it has basically been financed by the New South Wales Farmers Association. They are the only farm body that has been viable and paying their subs and dues consistently. The Western Australians love them or hate them depending on the mood they are in when they get up in the morning and I do not know—

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CHAIR—Here are three of them you can ask!

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Mr Hart—We know that they are a pretty touchy bunch in the west.

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CHAIR—We are the engine room of the economy.

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Senator JOYCE—It is interesting because these things are known in this room but they are not known publicly.

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Mr Hart—The Grains Council of Australia, as I understand it, at the moment effectively represents nobody. I am a member of a state farm organisations and I was very actively involved as an executive councillor and a Grains Committee member in the New South Wales Farmers Association some time ago for quite a period, but there has been a massive disconnect in South Australia, Victoria and Queensland between the people who somehow get themselves elected to state farm organisations and the rank and file. I do not know how this has happened but it appears to me that it has. We as farmers have to take some responsibility for this. We have to take a lot more care in the people we get into these positions and we have to make sure that bodies that are supposed to be representing us actually do. The Grains Council of Australia is a classic example of one that is not representing anybody.

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Senator JOYCE—You have heard the argument that single desk sales are inefficient. Are you aware of any single desk buyers throughout the world? If so, where and why do they still exist?

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Mrs O’Hare—Iraq, India.

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Mr Hart—Most of our biggest customers are single desk buyers.

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Senator JOYCE—So what do you think will happen when two Australian competitors go to the same market, to a single desk buyer?

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Mr Hart—I am a farmer and when I go to a supplier I say, ‘How much for a tonne of super or a litre of fuel?’ If I go down the road to the next bloke and it is 2c a litre cheaper for the fuel or $30 a tonne cheaper for the fertiliser, I will buy from the cheapest supplier.

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Senator JOYCE—Are the traders that are selling to those single desk buyers making money out of growing the grain or selling the grain?

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Mr Hart—They are making their margin out of selling.