Senator JOYCE—I am still confused. How many people have you got that are in the role of dealing with the media?

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Senator Carr—You’re always confused.

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Senator JOYCE—No, it is because you cannot give a straight answer. How many people have you got that are in the role of dealing with the media?

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Senator Carr—Two.

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Senator JOYCE—Only two?

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Senator Carr—I have said this several times to you now.

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Senator JOYCE—And that is a straight answer that no-one else deals with the media?

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Senator Carr—Absolutely. Two.

Senator JOYCE—Is it possible for you to table the document for which you outlay where that two per cent efficiency dividend is going to come from? If you, as you have stated, have gone through and mentioned or at least tabulated in some form where this money is going to come from, is it possible for you to table that document so that we can all have a look at it?

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Mr Paterson—I do not have a document to table for you, nor have I sought to quantify precisely each of the contributory elements of that to be able to reach the efficiency dividend. What I am able to do is to examine our staff turnover issues, identify where I can curtail expenditure in a variety of areas, have senior officers within the department exercise constraint in relation to expenditure, and for me to be satisfied that at the conclusion of the financial year I will be able to meet my obligations in administering the department.

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Senator JOYCE—With due respect, as an accountant I can assure you that anybody else would say that if you have a target to meet people would like to see in an empirical form how you are going to meet it, rather than an anecdotal statement or in the form of a wish. I know the two per cent dividend has been—

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Mr Paterson—I do not take kindly to being either verballed or personally attacked in the way that Senator Joyce has done it. I would appreciate if he could rephrase his question.

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CHAIR—Yes. We were talking about courtesy here before.

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Senator JOYCE—I think that we have a right.

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Mr Paterson—You inferred that anybody with an accounting or other background would be able to do this. I have responded to your question and I do not like the inference.

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Senator JOYCE—I am saying that what I would like to see is empirically where this two per cent dividend is going to come from, rather than a statement that we hope it eventuates at the end of the year.

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Mr Paterson—I did not make that statement.

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Senator JOYCE—Please let me finish because I am speaking.

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Mr Paterson—I will not be verballed.

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Senator JOYCE—Let me finish because I am speaking.

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CHAIR—The valid objection is that Mr Paterson was having his words twisted and I think you are continuing to do that.

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Senator ABETZ—There was a misunderstanding. Let Senator Joyce ask his question again.

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Senator WEBBER—Rephrase your question.

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CHAIR—Yes. And rather than paraphrasing Mr Paterson, can you ask a question, Senator Joyce?

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Senator JOYCE—Can we put on notice that we would like to see exactly where you envisage this two per cent dividend will come from?

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CHAIR—Mr Paterson?

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Mr Paterson—I am hesitant to say yes to that question on the basis that I have indicated the action that is being taken across a broad and complex portfolio at a time that there are a range of measures that are impacting on the portfolio. It is my obligation under the Financial Management and Accountability Act to administer the appropriations provided by the department, given the directions of the government of the day, to administer those activities appropriately and to report at the end of the financial year and I am happy to do so. I have indicated the areas in which I intend to constrain expenditure and the approach that has been taken.

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Senator JOYCE—With due respect—

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CHAIR—Senator Joyce. Mr Paterson, have you finished?

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Mr Paterson—No.

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CHAIR—Mr Paterson has not finished.

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Mr Paterson—I have indicated the steps that are being taken to ensure that we meet our obligations by the end of the financial year. Senator Joyce wants me to be able to table a document now which precisely indicates how I will do that by the end of the financial year and I am saying that I am not in a position to do that at the present time.

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Senator JOYCE—Secretary, I have actually asked on notice now, so that you do not accuse me of verballing you, how where that this approximately $20 million reduction in expenditure is going to come from. We have some $733,000, $4,815,000, $4,910,000 and $5,199,000. These figures cannot have been plucked out of the air. Where do they come from?

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CHAIR—You have asked your question. Mr Paterson has provided an answer to that and that is a full answer.

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Senator JOYCE—He has not provided an answer. These are not abstract figures. Obviously there has been collation. They did not just fall out of a plane. Where did they come from?

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CHAIR—You asked the question; Mr Paterson gave an answer. You asked for the question on notice and Mr Paterson indicated that he thought that was not appropriate.

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Senator JOYCE—I want to know exactly how we came up with the numbers $733,000, $4,910,000 and $5,199,000. I want to know exactly where those numbers came from.

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Mr Paterson—I do not want to fall into the trap that you fell into earlier in relation to inferences about accounting treatment, but two per cent of our appropriation delivers those numbers. That is a straightforward calculation.

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Senator JOYCE—I want to know exactly where this is going?

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Mr Paterson—In response to the first question that I was asked in this area I have indicated that we have taken action in relation to the current financial year and I have indicated we have taken no decisions in relation to how we will meet that obligation in the 2008-09 and subsequent financial years. I said that right up front. We have taken no decisions as to how we will accommodate that going forward. We have not got through the budget process. We do not know what the final position will be in relation to the portfolio going forward. We know what the position is at the present time.

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Senator JOYCE—Then the figures are rubbery.

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Mr Paterson—The figures are not rubbery. I take offence at that.

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CHAIR—Senator Joyce, if you have any basis for stating that, please elaborate but otherwise those kind of allegations are not appropriate.

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Senator JOYCE—Can I elaborate?

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Mr Paterso