CHAIR (Senator Heffernan)—I welcome the witnesses to the hearing. We are obviously interested to hear on the record in the first instance the apple story and then we will be moving to a private briefing on other matters.

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Mr Quinlivan—I might start by explaining the role of the department in Biosecurity Australia because the committee’s letter was directed to John Cahill, as head of BA, but it was mostly about the apples appeal, which actually has nothing to do with BA. It is done in the department quite separately from BA. So questions on the appeal would be directed to us rather than to John. The IRA, of course, is John and Biosecurity’s responsibility and the next steps—what happens from now on by way of developing a protocol with New Zealand for the import of apples, which might ultimately lead to applications to import apples—is the responsibility of AQIS. Jenny Gordon and Peter Liehne are here to speak about that. So there are three quite separate functions and roles here on apples. I thought it was important to make that point because the letter confused at least two of those.

Mr Cahill— The main industry submission identifies that fire blight has not been transmitted on the surface of mature apples in any instance where fire blight has been detected.

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CHAIR—How was it transmitted? Just in leaf?

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Dr Roberts—Almost invariably in planting material, sometimes in curious ways. For example, the disease got into the UK, I think in the fifties, and then it appeared in France some years later. The belief is that birds that migrated between the UK and France transmitted it, because the hedgerows in England are full of fire blight hosts and you literally have fire blight bacteria dripping off the plants at some times of the year. The sparrows or whatever fly 15 miles across the channel, scratch around in other plants and transmit the disease.

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Senator JOYCE—How did it get to New Zealand?

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Dr Roberts—It got there in about 1915 or 1916, almost certainly by planting material, although there are all sorts of theories.

Dr Roberts—Some people had conspiracy theories, so you are probably going in the right direction!

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CHAIR—Very strange.

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Senator JOYCE—So Australia is unique in that we do not have fire blight at the moment. It is in Europe and New Zealand. Is it in America?

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Dr Roberts—It is in North America; it is not in South America or in China. It has been eradicated from Japan. It is not in most of South-East Asia; it is not in Africa. So we are certainly not unique. We might be one of the few substantial apple producing countries that do not have fire blight, but we are certainly not the only one. South Africa is a substantial apple producing company and does not have fire blight.

Senator JOYCE—Does New Zealand export apples to China?

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Ms van Meurs—Yes, they do.

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Senator JOYCE—How do they do that? What is the process?

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Dr Roberts—We are not necessarily privy to the fine details of that. It is country-to-country business.

Senator JOYCE—Obviously, there is a percentage chance under this current process that fire blight will come in. It is not the case that it will not come in. There is a percentage chance that it will. So ultimately if you take your time frame out long enough it will turn up. What is the process then, when it turns up, for how you are going to deal with it?

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Dr Roberts—I will just comment on the proposition. The history of pests and diseases in Australia is that something turns up every year. The history of trade in regulated horticultural products shows that we are very safe in a pest and disease introduction sense. If you look at the history of plant pests and diseases in Australia, the risky pathways are through the north, where there are a lot of natural movement pathways, particularly for insect pests, and through what you would have to conclude is illegal movement of fruit—smuggling and so on—that has happened over the years.

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Senator JOYCE—That was not the question that I asked though.

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Dr Roberts—Getting to the point, there is a contingency plan already drafted for fire blight. The first iteration of it actually goes right back to about 1996 I think. That sets out a lot of the technical details, some of which were exercised, of course, with the Melbourne incident. Then, under the cost-sharing deed agreement that has been negotiated and agreed between industry, the Australian government and state governments, there are cost-sharing provisions for dealing with those incidents.

Senator JOYCE—With your knowledge of it at the moment, would it involve quarantine of the orchard and pulling out all the trees?

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Dr Roberts—Yes. If you look again at our report, the conservative view we have taken is that you would not be able to eradicate it. That has been the starting point of our analysis.

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Senator JOYCE—That is very important; we will have that on the record. So if it turns up you will not be able to eradicate it?

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Dr Roberts—That is our assumption in terms of building a conservative approach to risk management.

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Senator JOYCE—There are 300 pages telling you that you will not be able to get rid of it. That seems peculiar.

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Dr Roberts—The alternative is that you say it is easy to eradicate and we will not worry too much about risk management. We have assumed that you need really good risk management, because if it gets in, we are ruined, in a sense.

Senator JOYCE—So this is a correct statement: if we import apples from New Zealand, it is not that there is no chance of canker coming in—that is, there is a slight chance of canker coming in. That is a fair statement; is it not?

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Dr Roberts—The chance of it coming in meets Australia’s appropriate level of protection.

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Senator JOYCE—There is a slight chance of it coming in.

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Dr Roberts—Every passenger who comes from New Zealand also carries a slight chance.

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Senator JOYCE—I am asking a straight question. There is a slight chance that it will come in.

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Dr Roberts—The risk—and do not forget the risk includes the likelihood of its happening times the consequence—meets Australia’s ALOP with the risk management measures—

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Senator JOYCE—You are not answering the question. There is a slight chance that it will come in.

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Mr Cahill—It will. The way it is expressed in terms of Australia’s ALOP is very low.

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Senator JOYCE—Okay, that is the answer. There is a chance it will come in.

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Mr Cahill—It is not zero.

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Senator JOYCE—You just talked about the—

Dr Roberts—You are talking about needing a continuous chain of events that says that you take an apple from an orchard in New Zealand that happens to be carrying the disease organism. That disease organism survives the packing and transport chain and the distribution chain to Australia and is consumed in some form, perha